Zipang.

Chief Petty Officer Klerk · Sun Jan 02, 2005 8:34 am

Interesting new anime about the Aegis-class warship Mirai and WWII. Heres a link for it. Clickie here

Some images for you gun bunnies.

Post by **Taurec** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 11:44 am

I saw it, and it did remind me of the movie "The Final Countdown."

I'm just not sure how to take this. "They fight to protect home and their families"

But if a japanese Aegis would fight the Yamato ... it will be a very short anime.. <grin>

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:13 pm

I just saw the two episodes that CPOK knows about.

It is definetly the anime version of "Final Countdown". I am kinda surpirised about some of the JNSDF officer unfimilarity with thier history. I know that at least the USN would know about it.

Now for some problems, if an unknown ship suddenly appeared in the middle of formation, it would have been hammered. PEROID.

On the whole an intresting story for right now, but I have feeling that Naval action will be few and far between.

HELLFIRE · Post by **HELLFIRE** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 8:20 am

a Japanese version of The Final Countdown

VEEEEEERY interesting... the philosophical sides of 'why we fight' should
be interesting, tho I hope that's not the MAIN point of this

...will be sure to get this asap! Thx for the recommends!

Regards

Circle · Post by **Circle** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:56 pm

Sounds interesting, I've always wanted to see a modern Japanese point of view of Japan's agression in WW2. Didn't know the battleship Yamato was already in service before the U.S. entered the war.

Chief Petty Officer Klerk · Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:08 am

NEED MORE OF THIS ANIME...

Can't wait for ep 3

HELLFIRE · Post by **HELLFIRE** » Sun Jan 09, 2005 12:25 pm

FINALLY caught ep1... I NEED MORE OF THIS GEM!! A quick
anouncement of a licencee would be nice too so I can start the countdown
to the DVDs being released...

Aegis v Yamato.... any takers?

IMHGbO: at pointblank range the Yamato wouldn't even feel the dual 5"
of the Aegis. If the Aegis could get off enough 12.75" torps, they
MIGHT have a chance -- belly hits were what took the Yamato down
enroute to Okinawa in the closing days of WW2, or you take out the
rudder / props and Yamato loses maneuverability and/or speed.
The Aegis'd probably lose the closerange fight... unless the CIWS
could track AND shoot down 9x 18.1" shells fast enough, byebye
VERY expensive ship.

At longer ranges, it'd probably be a standoff. With only 8 Harpoons,
the Yamato probably wouldn't even feel them, but the 18.1" shells could
be tracked by the Aegis system... question is, which goes first: the
Yamato's ammo supply (1000+ shells) or the 20mm ammo.

...that's in this Gunbunny's humble opinion, anyways

@Circle
If I remember correctly, Yamato was commissioned a week after the
Pearl Harbor attack and became fleet flagship at that time.

Regards

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:50 am

Well, if anybody has a very good handle of translating and has some spare time on thier hands, the guys over at Deph need another translator for Zipang.

(DAMN IT)

(wonder if Auburn offers Japanese courses)

Geshron Tyler · Post by **Geshron Tyler** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 2:03 am

@Hellfire: Actually, I'm surprised that you feel that 8 Harpoons wouldn't be
enough to take out even a battle ship. There's no real world example of
what damage a ship-killer missle would do to something like a modern cruiser or carrier, but I would think that modern high yield explosives would
reduce the advantages of heavy armor. Not to mention, the crew could probably adjust the flight profile of the Harpoon to take advantage of the
thinner deck armor. I don't know if the Harpoon has an AP warhead, or if it
relies on a shaped charge to penetrate the hull, but I don't think they'd just
shrug off an attack. Admittedly, I don't think modern Navies have been too concerned about heavily armoring their ships, so missles don't need really big warheads. As far as I know, that was because with guided missles, you couldn't really armor a ship satisfactorially
against them, without sacrificing speed, and prohibitive cost.

The modern 5-inch is quite a different beast from what it was in WWII as well, especially with modern computerised radar fire control. I would grant
that it would take quite a few hits to put a dent into a battleship, but the Aegis could certainly manuever much better for less loss of accuracy.

Okay, I don't mean to go off on a tear here.

There is a Alt-History series being written though, that deals with a similar scenario. "Weapons of Choice" by John Birmingham.

An accident with wormhole testing throws a 21st century Multi-Nation Task Force back into a version of WWII 1942, right in the middle of the US Naval Task Force racing to reinforce Midway. Things do not go well.... No more said here, to prevent spoilers. There _is_ a Japanese ship in the 21st. Century group, I will add.

HELLFIRE · Post by **HELLFIRE** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:50 am

Crap... has been awhile since I've touched this series... BUT MORE IS NEEDED!!!

Geshron Tyler wrote:There's no real world example of
what damage a ship-killer missle would do to something like a modern cruiser or carrier, but I would think that modern high yield explosives would
reduce the advantages of heavy armor.

@Geshron
There actually is a precident for the kind of damage a modern cruise missile
could cause a ship: back in the 60s the Enterprise (CVN-65) suffered a fire
and subsequent cookoff of loaded ordinance. Investigators later pegged
the explosive force to be equivalent to five or 6 Harpoon / Exocet-class
ASMs. Big E was back in flight ops within a matter of hours...

FYI, according to my sources, modern USN CVNs have around a 12"
hull thickness. Yamato's armor stats are ~16" belt, ~9" deck, 21"+
turrents and barbettes, and ~19" conning tower.

Like you said, it's a great 'what if' scenario... and short of getting into
a detailed analysis of pre-WW2 Japanese metallurgy and serving a stint
in the Navy and getting qualed on Aegis & Harpoon, it's a question likely that will
never be answered...

BTW, a warm welcome to the boards

Regards

Post by **Taurec** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 4:45 pm

Battleships usually start a fire exchange with plunging or vertical fire.
decks were designed to take that beating.

The harpoon is armed with a 500 lbs penetration/blast type warhead
But it can't deliver 100% of the explosive power usually it floats around 40% for modern explosives.

The charge of a harpoon simply can't generate enough kinetic energy to breach inches of armor and deliver it's payload.
afaik the harpoon is designed for disabling all ship types except large
cruisers.

A French Exocet anti-ship missile, which sunk British ships during the 1983 Falklands war, can penetrate ~ 2.75 inches of steel. A battleship has steel armor from 9-21 inches thick, compared to just a quarter inch on modern Aegis cruisers and destroyers

imho .. you would piss off the captain for scratching it's paintjob <g>

KiLlEr · Post by **KiLlEr** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:03 pm

But since a harpoon is guided, one can wipe out the command tower in one shot from several miles away, or even take out the drive system and leave the ship without control.

And such an attack on a ship would leave the crew completely confused as to what happened, because those weapon systems did not exist. Imagine the shock of seeing these "things" fly at you from out of nowhere at speed several times that of the fastest aircraft.

Such a sight would do more phsycological damage than the actual warhead.

Post by **Taurec** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 5:05 pm

The attack / command center is placed in the deep insides of the ship.
Warheads fly faster then rockets. (afaik)

and how do you guide a harpoon ... it's F&F not optical or laser guided. (afaik)

Geshron Tyler · Post by **Geshron Tyler** » Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:08 pm

I didn't think that something like CIC had been developed at the time. Fire control may have been centralised to some degree, but targeting information still basically depended on the Mark I Eyeball (augmented with rangefinders andother optical aids), and then basically relaying the information by word of
mouth (speaking tube, intercom). Can't see a commander sticking himself deep in the bowels of a warship, trying to coordinate a fleet action relying only on information supplied sight unseen. I think they used amored shutters to protects the various bridge spaces, but a hit there would have been a problem. Hmm, haven't seen any WWII Naval war movies in quite a while...

KiLlEr · Post by **KiLlEr** » Sat Feb 19, 2005 12:08 am

Whether or not the comander is in the tower or if its in the guts of the ship, makes no difference. Al logistics, information gathering, and control is within the command deck above the maindeck of the ship. Taking it out would render it blind.

Shells, unlike missles, continuosly decelerate the moment they leave the barrel. They may start out faster, but they slow down just as quick, relying on ballistics for thier range.

In anycase, the aegis crusier can easily dodge the shells from a battleship, since theh battleships guns were not ment to work against fast moving targets. so long as the Aegis stays out of small cannon fire, it can chew the battleship up real bad over time.