psychiatry bill?

[creon]

I'm going to continue my attention getting madness with a quick perusal of something that many may disregard as a common issue in any anime, and any drama for that matter; in any case I think it's interesting to note the psychological ruins many characters end in, and what could have been predicted (note--I'm considering only fmp1).

Sousuke of course gets nailed bad. He's frozen in the beginning of the last few encounters with Gauron, he can't activate the LD in the before last battle, and emotion makes its initial entrance into his life in a rather uncontrolled manner. He makes Kaname cry and needs her help to dispose of Gauron in the final battle (I was expecting some ridiculous and prestigious LD usage--instead Kaname basically did everything after his knife wielding panic against Gauron (which Gauron seemed to allow anyway)).

Tessa is obviously in shambles. Even without considering the novels or Fumo she's already making (potentially) bad decisions based on her feelings for Sousuke, and from the vending machine scene is obviously fragile in general at the end (you could argue that is only a temporary instability due to the loss of crew, but things have been piling up and I doubt (as the novels prove) that she has had full release). To her credit the end of fmp1 shows her real inner strength however (scenes with Gauron).

Kaname I'll cover more in just a moment. Her angry facade when with Suosuke may make her initially harder to crack, though her emotions still seem pretty clear; she's obviously upset when the entire final escapade begins (in the plane), and her reaction to Sousuke's insensitivity (after he can't use the LD) is perfectly reasonable.

It's interesting to note that strangely Kaname seems to be the strongest character following all the tribulations. One could argue that she has not had to go through as much as Suosuke (numerous challenging battles, and the change of his role from simple soldier (which he mentions)), but on the other hand as a civilian she can be viewed as less resistent to such opposition and hence more susceptible to (internal) damage in the last segments.

She definitely saves the day in concluding material, and her confidence and resolve are unswerving (note after she commits to the path (her initial outburst is "impossible")). Again, an immediate argument places more interest in Tessa, who schemed the plan which Kaname used to take control of the ship (with Tessa of course (due to Whispered communication)), however Kaname went through with the plan in a hostile and unfamiliar environment, and even Tessa said "She's the best" in reference to her in the heat of it all.

I apologize if this topic seemed to turn into another Kaname fan outburst--it came out of my pondering the issue of everyone's breakdowns, and realizing that Kaname soared through it all.

What's of course interesting is the possible social commentary that explains this all with upbringing--Kaname of course had a normal upbringing (somewhat--remember that info sheet on her at the beginning? mother died, father elsewhere, ran away from home...), whereas the others had extremely reclusive and restrictive upbringings as prodigies in their respective fields.

The romantic will of course dictate that the different outcomes are entirely a product of the individuals' inherent qualities.

Anyway, I probably put some to sleep (those that read this far). I of course have more to say, I just thought I'd open a (funny?) topic I haven't seen here yet. Some of this is predictable, but what I think isn't entirely obvious is that Kaname coasted through best of them all (Suosuke's consistent problems in the last few encounters indicate to me that he is still in bad shape, and I already said the same of Tessa).

Gauron has been covered of course. I might talk about him (and the ending) separately another time. For now I'm content with the amount of opinion-free inundation I'm providing (then again I wanted to posted this topic yesterday).

[Jae]

Heh.

Personally I always considered Kaname to be the best balanced.
This would be between S and T, but also she's the happy medium between T and Mao, IMO.

I wouldn't say she had an upbringing that is normal for a japanese (or american even) person- lived some years in another country- mother dies- but definately not as unusual a childhood as Sousuke or Tessa.

But S+T in an abstract sense lived sheltered lives. Not from the harshness or loneliness of reality, but from ordinary social interactions. Kaname had to learn how to balance her inner self while dealing with a great deal of outside social forces.. and has had a much more well-rounded life.

How does it connect? Well, perhaps K has had the right kind of experiences that enabled her to develop into the survivor type (not to mention the adaptive type).

S is a 'survivor' in one sense, but he's always only followed orders. He hasn't had to think about the reasons/ethics/results of what he did- if someone told him to do it, it must be okay. His problems begin when he starts to think about what he's doing. Suddenly it's personal, and S hasn't yet really developed a personal inner self. This is a large part of the reason why he doesn't know how to tell Tessa 'No'- she's one of his commanders, and he doesn't know where the line between allowable orders and too-personal orders are because he never had that line before.

Tessa I can say less about. She really isn't played out well enough, but in one sense she has the tendencies of someone who's been spoiled. That's not to say she's had an easy life, but the feeling is that she's been catered to, as much as others have been allowed to. When she makes mistakes, is she reprimanded as much as someone else would be? Is she even used to making mistakes? I imagine not. Perhaps, for the first time, she really wants something that she can't have, badly enough to try to get it. And she doesn't yet realize she can't have it, and that there are lines she can't cross. She has a lot of inner strength, and I'm sure it's what has allowed her to get to the point where she is (very mature in some ways, for her age), but she isn't, again, well developed.

There's a term in psychology, but it could apply to S and T- 'adult children'. It may apply to K too, but in a much lesser sense. 'Adult children' is used in reference to people who had childhoods that required early maturation before that child was ready, and it leaves some developmental deficiencies behind. Sort of like being forced to learn algebra before really understanding how to multiply and divide.


Hehe, pop psychology on fictional characters is fun

[Taurec]

Gauron showed to be a very stable maniac all the time.

[creon]

Taurec:
They did a great job with Gauron; his introductory scenes worried me a little (slightly cliche), but after that he is extremely enjoyable. His unabashed arrogance and blatant nastiness make him honest in many ways; usually these days enemies are portrayed in the slimy, tricky sort of way. I like how they made him into the 'intelligent beast' Kalinin referred to him as. I like him a lot; in fact I'm surprised that I like him much more than many of his analogues from other animes (Vicious is another honest-badass enemy, though as I sad I prefer Gauron). I digress...

Jae:
Tessa is definitely spoiled, though as always each trait is a double edged sword. Her uncompromising cling to her ambitions (big and small) left her in many preferrably avoided situations (obvious example is the contest with mao), however such unbridled zeal also allows her to directly stand up to Gauron in the end--the final victory over Gauron is definitely her's and Kaname's, not Sousuke's. Again I'll state that my favorite segment with her are those final bridge scenes, where she shows her true strength, seemingly unaffected by and irreverent of superior opposition.

It's true that Sousuke has only been autonomous to a rather low level--either some superior or his own intellect pose unassailable limitations on his actions, and he then acts within a restricted framework. I think his real problem can be more directly referred to as a more metaphorical following of orders--an inflexibility, a dependence on coherent structure. Upon yelling at Chidori it is clear that his own assessment is that the quick escalation of his responsibility and power (which has been evolving much more slowly until then) was the cause.

The real catalyst of course is his attempted objective standpoint; by feigning a lack of emotion, he eventually heaps upon himself the responsibility of too many which in fact are dear (reference to emotions he repressed) and there he breaks.

(I'm saying obvious things, sorry).

I wouldn't like to place all the stress on upbringing; I think it's important that Kaname's initial data sheet points out certain traumas (on top of what you said, it mentions running away from home at 8 and vandalism).

All in all I guess it all proves the common perception that a person must be aggressive to do well. That's a shame.

Furthermore Kaname seems to be most independent; Suosuke must have orders, Tessa seems to need both help and people to impress. And that I wouldn't heap on upbringing--her father wouldn't have felt comfortable leaving her in Tokyo were she not already clearly capable of coping.

(time for me to shut up)

One last thing; I like Kalinin's treatment of the situation: he clearly recognizes that Kashim needs independence and a cooler understanding of his internals, and picks an excellent mission to cultivate those things. We're of course implied that it isn't just for fighting reasons, but because Kalinin honestly cares... Anyway so Kaname's personality forms quite a nice complement to Sousuke's, shining in areas he has lacking.

next time I'm about to spout 10 pages of obvious drivel, I'll press delete

[Mr.Bill]

I heard my name? did someone call me?
No?
owell
you people write too much







[Yes they do, and it's interesting, i know i'm mr oneliner myself but try not to spoil it for others nnnnn'kay - T]

TT <insert username> be quiet *deletes* ........ next time try to post atleast something that actually has something to do with this thread.

[Jae]

Well, I'm not going to get into 'nature vs nurture'- it's really hard to debate it with fictional characters

But it seems a bit contradictary to say-

The romantic will of course dictate that the different outcomes are entirely a product of the individuals' inherent qualities.

and then

I wouldn't like to place all the stress on upbringing

It's a little tough to say what qualities in each of them are inherent or learned. All we have is what we know of their pasts, not their genetic/family common traits, which is why upbringing is the stronger argument- there's more basis in the story.

All in all I guess it all proves the common perception that a person must be aggressive to do well.

In stories, particulary simple ones common in anime, it's easier to show a conflict presented and solved through aggressiveness. And FMP is just another one...

And not everyone in FMP who is aggressive is successful.
We could say Tessa is aggressive in love, but ...
On the other hand, Kaname is not aggressive in love, and she's getting trouble now but we know how it turns out.
Gauron is pretty aggressive <g>
Kurtz it assaultingly aggressive

I think in FMP 'aggressive' fails as much as it succeeds- if anything it's shown as just one element that can contibute to success but it's best tempered with intelligence, planning,ect .

I don't see Kaname's particular aggressiveness as being a successful sort of aggressiveness. It seems to help her less than it hinders her. As you noted, she's had negative problems in her life because of or made worse by her flash-temper. So I can't go all melancholy about the possible promoting of popular faux notions of bone-head aggressive being the best way to be.

[creon]

I enjoy this sort of inexact debate over fictional characters precisely because you are attempting to construct, as it seems, a very exact 3 dimensional replica of something of which you only have two blurry, poorly angled, washed out pictures of...

I don't think that what I said was a contradiction; in one place I said a romantic will stress nature, in another I said I wouldn't like to put all the weight on nature. I didn't imply I side with the romantic or not, and even so the second comment was in reference to the fact that most of your argument hinged upon the nature side of it (using your terms).

The fact that the stories are all we have to lean on is precisely why I put so much emphasis on Kaname's early early trevails, which possibly occurred before she had any conditioning, and are more exemplary of her core behavioral patterns.

(I'm typing on a sun keyboard I just 'acquired' and caps lock is where control usual is.. I'm using it since the tactile response is so nice)

True that any drama will have lots of aggressive personalities, especially one with action. That's why towards the end of my last post I commented more on independence, which I felt is half of what Kalinin is trying to foster in Sousuke (the other half being an understanding of his emotions (and of course the line between these two is blurred, and not even a line)) and what Kaname has as a strong point.

I was a little sarcastic in my final references to aggression (I'll say zeal from now on, since that seems to be closer to what I mean). Indeed I was talking out of my ass like you say.

Unfortunately this takes all the fun out of my argument; independence and control of emotion are obvious and cliche entities any one contends with when struggling to master themselves. And even so it still seems zeal (heh) won the day in the end. Of course you can argue that zeal is an extension of confidence, which is an extension of those two objects I referred to as cliche and obvious... boring.