Mithril AV-8B's? Impossible
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Mithril AV-8B's? Impossible
AV-8B or Super Harriers are shown as the Default Air to Ground attack aircraft, and are shown in Episode 5 making bombing runs. Given the Problems with the original super harrier; The AV-8B, I find this highly unlikely.
Mithril is supposed to be using the cream of the crop technology. AV-8B are not, they were put into service in 1993 and a report detailing their rather serious combat defiencies was published around 1988.
I'll give you the Snyopsis and then the link for the sticklers.
AV-8B's were suppposed to fufill 4 missions : close-air-support (CAS),Deep-Air-Support (DAS), helicopter escort (HE), armed reconnaissance' (ARMRECCE) , and limited anti-air-warfare
(AAW).
To able to fufill these missions, you need a good bombing system operable day or night with precision accuracy, and good manuverability to avoid losses from SAMS or AAA guns.
However the Original AV-8B is not equipped with even an adequate bombing system. Instead it uses ARBS (angle rate bombing system) with linkup with INS (Internal Navigation System), it's still not that good.
ARBS is designed for clear daytime conditions with limited night attack.
During the day, the Pilot has to waste critical time before he releases his weapons by getting a Television designation of his target or area with his DMT (dual systems mode tracker). Until that happens the Pilot cannot get a targeting solution, and cannot release his weapons. Like a target lock, except the pilot can't even calculate delivery info until he aquires this.
The bombing system is also restricted by vertical and lateral gimbal limits (measure rotation of an object in three dimensions.) If the pilot has to manuever and reaches the gimbal restrictions, he loses the data on the HUD he needs to bomb the target. This is similar to the same princples as the Sparrow or AIM-7. Keep your aircraft pointed at the target until the target is destroyed, otherwise you lose the lock. That's dangerous as we all should know.
The modern battlefield is a chaotic environment. Obsecured by smoke and dust FEBA (Foward edge of Battlefield) will be an extremely trying environment for the ARBS. The target will be visible to the naked eye, but with all the smoke, dust, etc, the necessary contrast for the ARBS to distinguish it won't be there. So the harriers will be sitting ducks waiting for it to aquire a target designation, this is even worse at night, because they have no terrain flying capability, and will have to fly higher to hit the general area.
Survivability wise the AV-8B suffers because of reduced speed and manueverability, because of it's aerodynamics and engine thrust capability. The design limits it's max speed and engine thrust does not allow to manuver agressively. So against SAMS the harriers will not fare well. In addition the AV-8B has a large radar cross section, and does not have self sealing fuel tanks, add to fact it only has one engine, and it survivability does not look good.
In air to air combat, quite simply the AV-8B sucks. When compared to pure fighter aircraft (F-16, F-15, Mig-29 etc...) it does not have the capabilities needed. It doesn't even have air to air radar. Instead the pilot has to rely on visual range.
For close range support the AV-8B is woefully unpowered. It may be close to the FEBA but that's actually a disadvantage. A soldier could destroy these aircraft on the ground, and the sheer amount of fuel and ordnance: "An example is that six harriers forward based flying 24 sorties a day will require 100,000 lbs of ordnance and 100,000 lbs of fuel. That's the majority of fuel and ordnance for a ground force.
To quote an expert, Mr. Anthony H. Cordesman comes to a different conclusion; he states:
"The F-18 aircraft at 150NM radius can deliver twice as many MK-82SE/MK-20 bombs as the AV-8B can operating under short takeoff conditions and have more time on station. At 200NM radius, the F-18 aircraft maintains its payload advantage ever the AV-8B and can remain on station three times longer."
So the AV-8B sucks in other words. The model I can Mithril using is the AV-8B II+ which rectifies alot of the problems and is the latest model. IOC of AV-8B II+ was 1997. The current Radar/Night Attack Harrier, or Harrier II+, has all the improvements of the Night Attack aircraft plus the AN/APG-65 multi-mode radar. The fusion of night and radar capabilities allows the Harrier to be responsive to the MAGTF's needs for expeditionary, night and adverse weather, offensive air support. The AN/APG-65(V)2 tactical airborne radar system is based on existing specifications for F/A-18 Aircraft; it provides the AV-8B multi-target tracking capability and the ability to perform air-to-air and air-to surface weapons delivery in conditions of marginal visibility, day or night.
I decided to write this because of the night attack on Khanka and I remembered that their was a later version of the harrier. These are only problems with the AV-8B, and says nothing of the problems with the AV-8A/C.
The Link
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 88/DFS.htm[/i]
edit
Since I can't edit it immediately. The link is sans the italics.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 88/DFS.htm
My apologies for practically double posting. Let me you what you guys think of this.
Mithril is supposed to be using the cream of the crop technology. AV-8B are not, they were put into service in 1993 and a report detailing their rather serious combat defiencies was published around 1988.
I'll give you the Snyopsis and then the link for the sticklers.
AV-8B's were suppposed to fufill 4 missions : close-air-support (CAS),Deep-Air-Support (DAS), helicopter escort (HE), armed reconnaissance' (ARMRECCE) , and limited anti-air-warfare
(AAW).
To able to fufill these missions, you need a good bombing system operable day or night with precision accuracy, and good manuverability to avoid losses from SAMS or AAA guns.
However the Original AV-8B is not equipped with even an adequate bombing system. Instead it uses ARBS (angle rate bombing system) with linkup with INS (Internal Navigation System), it's still not that good.
ARBS is designed for clear daytime conditions with limited night attack.
During the day, the Pilot has to waste critical time before he releases his weapons by getting a Television designation of his target or area with his DMT (dual systems mode tracker). Until that happens the Pilot cannot get a targeting solution, and cannot release his weapons. Like a target lock, except the pilot can't even calculate delivery info until he aquires this.
The bombing system is also restricted by vertical and lateral gimbal limits (measure rotation of an object in three dimensions.) If the pilot has to manuever and reaches the gimbal restrictions, he loses the data on the HUD he needs to bomb the target. This is similar to the same princples as the Sparrow or AIM-7. Keep your aircraft pointed at the target until the target is destroyed, otherwise you lose the lock. That's dangerous as we all should know.
The modern battlefield is a chaotic environment. Obsecured by smoke and dust FEBA (Foward edge of Battlefield) will be an extremely trying environment for the ARBS. The target will be visible to the naked eye, but with all the smoke, dust, etc, the necessary contrast for the ARBS to distinguish it won't be there. So the harriers will be sitting ducks waiting for it to aquire a target designation, this is even worse at night, because they have no terrain flying capability, and will have to fly higher to hit the general area.
Survivability wise the AV-8B suffers because of reduced speed and manueverability, because of it's aerodynamics and engine thrust capability. The design limits it's max speed and engine thrust does not allow to manuver agressively. So against SAMS the harriers will not fare well. In addition the AV-8B has a large radar cross section, and does not have self sealing fuel tanks, add to fact it only has one engine, and it survivability does not look good.
In air to air combat, quite simply the AV-8B sucks. When compared to pure fighter aircraft (F-16, F-15, Mig-29 etc...) it does not have the capabilities needed. It doesn't even have air to air radar. Instead the pilot has to rely on visual range.
For close range support the AV-8B is woefully unpowered. It may be close to the FEBA but that's actually a disadvantage. A soldier could destroy these aircraft on the ground, and the sheer amount of fuel and ordnance: "An example is that six harriers forward based flying 24 sorties a day will require 100,000 lbs of ordnance and 100,000 lbs of fuel. That's the majority of fuel and ordnance for a ground force.
To quote an expert, Mr. Anthony H. Cordesman comes to a different conclusion; he states:
"The F-18 aircraft at 150NM radius can deliver twice as many MK-82SE/MK-20 bombs as the AV-8B can operating under short takeoff conditions and have more time on station. At 200NM radius, the F-18 aircraft maintains its payload advantage ever the AV-8B and can remain on station three times longer."
So the AV-8B sucks in other words. The model I can Mithril using is the AV-8B II+ which rectifies alot of the problems and is the latest model. IOC of AV-8B II+ was 1997. The current Radar/Night Attack Harrier, or Harrier II+, has all the improvements of the Night Attack aircraft plus the AN/APG-65 multi-mode radar. The fusion of night and radar capabilities allows the Harrier to be responsive to the MAGTF's needs for expeditionary, night and adverse weather, offensive air support. The AN/APG-65(V)2 tactical airborne radar system is based on existing specifications for F/A-18 Aircraft; it provides the AV-8B multi-target tracking capability and the ability to perform air-to-air and air-to surface weapons delivery in conditions of marginal visibility, day or night.
I decided to write this because of the night attack on Khanka and I remembered that their was a later version of the harrier. These are only problems with the AV-8B, and says nothing of the problems with the AV-8A/C.
The Link
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 88/DFS.htm[/i]
edit
Since I can't edit it immediately. The link is sans the italics.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 88/DFS.htm
My apologies for practically double posting. Let me you what you guys think of this.
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They also had a Hind in there fireing a rocket type that isn't normally mounted on a Hind.
Just another fudgie Gonzo made ...
edit
in the armory (ep1) we saw something on the Harrier that shouldn't be there .. we were thinking along the lines of a ECS system ..
So it could have been upgraded ...
Just another fudgie Gonzo made ...
edit
in the armory (ep1) we saw something on the Harrier that shouldn't be there .. we were thinking along the lines of a ECS system ..
So it could have been upgraded ...
Last edited by Taurec on Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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"Can I help you?, "you know this section is.." she broke off her sentence as the man walked towards her and nodded, "I think you can Captain".
Tessa looked down, "I haven't been called Captain in 4 years," Wha..what do you want?"
He gave her a devious grin, "I'm here to make sure you keep your promise."
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█████████
█▄█████▄█
█▼▼▼▼▼
█ Raaaaaaaaawr!!!
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this is true but remember that the base used by Mithril is a super high tec submarine that can act as an air craft carrior so the size of the deck has to be taken in to acount and the hight of the ship the fact is that that sub could not lanch a land bassed or carrior based fighter the only craft i could lanch would be VTOL type witch limmets the aircraft to hellicoptors yaks, harriors and soon the brand new F-a 35b. yaks preform worse then the Av 8s and Mithril would most likly just be geting there hands on the 35's so they would be using what could do the job and that is the Av 8s
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Dude. I was trying to say that those aircraft can't be AV-8Bs. They have night attack capability, and Mithril has the latest tech, so they would have the latest model. The newest model is the AV-8B Mark 2 +, which has night attack, ordinary AV-8B's don't. I hope that clarifies matters, Mithril was not using AV-8Bs, the were using AV-8B II +s. They did not state that in the anime. They goofed. I hope that clears matters up. Also, I think the Mi-24 was either a D or E model. Not an F. F has the fixed 30-mm twin gun on the right fuselage side. The one featured in the anime had a 4 barrel 12.7 gatling.
Last edited by Andrei Burnside on Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The problem with your analysis is that Mithral is in the same boat the the Britich Navy was in during the Falklands war. The need for air superoirty but needing to fit it on a very small platform. Since the deDaanan is akin to the Invincible, the same problem acures. The Sea Harrier has routinely proven to be a excellent dog fighter. I has numerous time be able to out dogfight the 'better jets' in that role. I'm certain that Mithrel has upgrade the electronic suite, the stucture and other thing that they can, but the space limitation of the deDaanan is the biggest factor. Since they are most of the time hitting taget that are of medium danger, the Harrier will give them momentary air superority so that the rest of the complement will do its job. Remember, Mithral didnot design the deDaanan for fighting 24 hours a day against any enemy. They are a scapel that can appear any time and leave at anytime. The Harrier despite its many faults is stillthe best Jet V/Stol ther is in the world.
I suspect like the B-52, C-130 and the A-10, the Harrier will be around for a long while because it fill its niche petrfectly.
Also, while the military like all the new gadgets, they like it to work all the time. The Harrier is tried and accept weapons platform that when used by a pilot who knows it strengths and limitaion, get the job done.
I suspect like the B-52, C-130 and the A-10, the Harrier will be around for a long while because it fill its niche petrfectly.
Also, while the military like all the new gadgets, they like it to work all the time. The Harrier is tried and accept weapons platform that when used by a pilot who knows it strengths and limitaion, get the job done.
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F/A-35 will never see the light of day. Congress and Rumsfeild will acncel the program.
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Okay Okay. The sea harrier is an excellent choice for that purpose. It makes sense. All I was trying to say is in the anime, it says they have
AV-8Bs/ Super Harriers. They messed up on the designation which should be AV-8B II+. No mention of Sea Harriers was made in the series. The whole essay was on why they couldn't be standard AV-8Bs.
TE has a point. The JSF should prove to be far better than the Harrier, however it's still in developement, with the contract being nearing the end of the Concept Demonstration Phase (CDP) by Boeing and Lockheed Martin. I believe in one of the Novels Mithril has Martin Marietta (Lockheed Martin) as one of their businesses that support them. Given that why the TDD-1 isn't equipped with some prototypes of the JSF is beyond me.
[/i]
AV-8Bs/ Super Harriers. They messed up on the designation which should be AV-8B II+. No mention of Sea Harriers was made in the series. The whole essay was on why they couldn't be standard AV-8Bs.
TE has a point. The JSF should prove to be far better than the Harrier, however it's still in developement, with the contract being nearing the end of the Concept Demonstration Phase (CDP) by Boeing and Lockheed Martin. I believe in one of the Novels Mithril has Martin Marietta (Lockheed Martin) as one of their businesses that support them. Given that why the TDD-1 isn't equipped with some prototypes of the JSF is beyond me.
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That's a small problem...
The boat they're using is slightly...incompatible.
The problem is, basically, its size. Its length along the beam prohibits the diving and rising times needed by their operations. In order to dive or rise in any respectable amount of time, they'd have to plane down at such an angle it would throw the crew off of their feet, cause equipment to drop from racks, slam people into consoles, and other nuisances. Also, they'd have to spin their screws so fast that they'd cavitate (this is an anomaly which occurs on subs all the time - you spin your screws fast enough that you create an area of low pressure behind them, low enough to vaporize the water - resulting in extremely noisy bubbles). Boomers have the same problems, which they make up for by being extremely quiet, and diving/rising slowly.
Which brings us to the area of how quiet this thing is. It's so big, it has one of two problems. 1) it's horribly noisy, which has its own obvious problems 2) its entirely too quiet, leading to a "hole in the water" lack of sound, thereby allowing it to be located with ease. This is demonstrated in the Russian Typhoon class boat, a boomer which they love to sit under the ice of the Aluetians.
(Oh, forgot to add - jets are even noisier than screws, and cause more cavitation)
All in all, that's been bugging me for a small bit. Can anyone think of a solution?
The problem is, basically, its size. Its length along the beam prohibits the diving and rising times needed by their operations. In order to dive or rise in any respectable amount of time, they'd have to plane down at such an angle it would throw the crew off of their feet, cause equipment to drop from racks, slam people into consoles, and other nuisances. Also, they'd have to spin their screws so fast that they'd cavitate (this is an anomaly which occurs on subs all the time - you spin your screws fast enough that you create an area of low pressure behind them, low enough to vaporize the water - resulting in extremely noisy bubbles). Boomers have the same problems, which they make up for by being extremely quiet, and diving/rising slowly.
Which brings us to the area of how quiet this thing is. It's so big, it has one of two problems. 1) it's horribly noisy, which has its own obvious problems 2) its entirely too quiet, leading to a "hole in the water" lack of sound, thereby allowing it to be located with ease. This is demonstrated in the Russian Typhoon class boat, a boomer which they love to sit under the ice of the Aluetians.
(Oh, forgot to add - jets are even noisier than screws, and cause more cavitation)
All in all, that's been bugging me for a small bit. Can anyone think of a solution?
Last edited by Tanaka Kichigai on Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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actualy lockhead won the contract but they are still doing some develupment to date the majority of the work is on the navy F-A35c carrior based veriant
As for the sub i have seen en evidence that they use props it could be some other "Black Technology" that drives the ship
As for the sub i have seen en evidence that they use props it could be some other "Black Technology" that drives the ship
Last edited by terran empire on Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The British are close to make a version of the Sea Harrier based on the Super Harrier, and SPain and India are salivating, so that is why I brought up the Sea Harrier. The idea of the night fighting version onthe AV-8B for Mithral would be better avioincs. Some thing that 'black Tech' can do rather well.
As for the JSF not being on the deDaanan, the only thought is that it was in protype stage when the deDaanan was deployed. The Comanche was past prototype stage, and considering its an alternate world, the US could have started production.
As for the JSF not being on the deDaanan, the only thought is that it was in protype stage when the deDaanan was deployed. The Comanche was past prototype stage, and considering its an alternate world, the US could have started production.
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That technology is available and has been available since 1984. Here's how it works:terran empire wrote:and lets not forget that in the anime the choppers and the armslaves are able to go invisible a technolage that though the us gov is looking in to is yet to be avalible
You have a layer of photoreceptive material (cloth, armor, etc) that also works as a camera and screen. Then, you project the image of the diametrically opposed side onto that "screen". The only reason the US doesn't use it (at least, not regularly) is because the military has no need. BDUs and camo paint both fulfill the Good Enough principle.
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